Turbo upgrade

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07 Nov 2016 13:12 #281 by Peter Davis
Peter Davis replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi Greg and others with new turbo
When I get to about 12 psi turbo pressure I get a new noise. Sounds like air but don't know if on intake side or after turbo. It could be a leak or just increased air flow. Has anyone else gained a new noise? It will save me time pulling apart and pressure testing.
Cheers
Peter

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07 Nov 2016 13:39 #282 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi Peter, the only noise should be the turbo whistling from about 1100 rpm so is it intercooler piping leaking at joints. Without hearing myself its hard to say other than you shouldnt.
Martyn "its an OKA thing"

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07 Nov 2016 14:16 #283 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi All
I have just received a reply from the turbo factory.
I had asked for some info regarding ideal or max temps of the turbo.
the reply is that they test all turbo's prior to shipping for balance and performance this includes at temp of 500 deg for a period and short bursts of 700 deg the reason is this is within the normal running range more than 700 they dont know as never tested. so up to 500 for extended periods but up to 700 for short bursts very short I would think.
I have asked Perkins for their opinion but no answer as yet.
Martyn "its an OKA thing"

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07 Nov 2016 16:13 #284 by Ralley
Ralley replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
I wouldn't be worried about the turbo handling the heat it's the pistons that are the weak point when it comes to heat. You really need to do your homework when it comes to this because the results are not good. For me in the Cummins I have set my upper limit to 650c pre turbo this works out about 550c post turbo but you should do your own research and be happy with what you come up with. I ran 550 post turbo in the Perkins before I put the Cummins in. Remember more boost equals lower EGT's.

Rob

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07 Nov 2016 17:40 #285 by Joseph Baz
Joseph Baz replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Rob,personally I wouldn't expose a Perkins past 500 to 550 for any extended period of time,from memory there is at least two types of pistons early were just plain forged aluminium and not very tolerant to injectors with an erratic spray pattern later models have a ceramic topped pistons that can't be machined to accommodate piston protrusion and the gudgeon pin bush have to be machined instead to accommodate as Perkins still had a single thickness head gasket,the latter pistons are a lot more tolerant of heat and less than perfect spray pattern the problem is how do you know what it's in a particular engine keeping EGT low is key.
Cheers,Joe

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08 Nov 2016 06:06 #286 by outyonda
outyonda replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

Peter Davis wrote: Hi Greg and others with new turbo
When I get to about 12 psi turbo pressure I get a new noise. Sounds like air but don't know if on intake side or after turbo. It could be a leak or just increased air flow. Has anyone else gained a new noise? It will save me time pulling apart and pressure testing.
Cheers
Peter


Peter, sounds like you have a air leak in your intake system,
Extra boost may have blown a gasket out

A pin hole in an intacooler makes a huge noise when the turbo starts wistling.

OKAs 091, 093, 094, 113, 346x6 & 405

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08 Nov 2016 06:51 #287 by 210greg
210greg replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Peter no new noise only a little louder with no muffler cant wait to do 210

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08 Nov 2016 08:16 #288 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi Greg,I am pleased that you and your brother are happy wait till you get the pump tuned to suit and you will be even happier.you have also noticed the difference to the draw of air, if you havn't yet have both engines running at say 2000 rpm and put your hand over the intake cowl and then tell me what difference there is if any.
Martyn "its an OKA thing"

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08 Nov 2016 08:23 - 08 Nov 2016 08:25 #289 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi all, I personally am not worried about what temps I run my OKA at but over time there has been opinions only (2 opinions above for starters) and mostly based on other engines temps but not on the perkins and I cannot find any reference to ideal perkins temps in any manuals or specs so to get a definitive answer I have gone to the source for engine and turbo so no more guessing on turbo and now waiting on engine.
Martyn "its an OKA thing"
Last Edit: 08 Nov 2016 08:25 by mort.

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08 Nov 2016 08:30 #290 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi Chris, yes you are right to a point but you can change the shift arm without changing the rod adjustment and the result is to move the rod forward however it also has the effect to change the gear stick angle.
Martyn "its an OKA thing"

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08 Nov 2016 11:18 #291 by 210greg
210greg replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Martyn have tried 210 and even at revs it does not suck air like 366 does at idle. in saying that 210 is running both filters and has had no mods done to air box.
Greg

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08 Nov 2016 15:22 #292 by John and Bronwyn
John and Bronwyn replied the topic: Turbo upgrade

Ralley wrote: I wouldn't be worried about the turbo handling the heat it's the pistons that are the weak point when it comes to heat. You really need to do your homework when it comes to this because the results are not good.


Yes, the results can be not good. I understand both Cummins and Caterpillar big engines have problems with exhaust valve seat recession with excessive EGT. I heard of several engines which did 30,000 hrs worth of damage in only a few hours. Extremely expensive!

Ralley wrote: For me in the Cummins I have set my upper limit to 650c pre turbo this works out about 550c post turbo but you should do your own research and be happy with what you come up with. I ran 550 post turbo in the Perkins before I put the Cummins in. Remember more boost equals lower EGT's.


I also have been given 650C as a safe limit for Cummins, from (shall we say) a "knowledgable source". However the relationship between pre-and post-turbo temps is not so simple. From the same knowledgable source, turbo turbine temp drop reduces with lower turbine efficiency (efficiency reduces at high turbine power, ie high boost & flow) and also with waste gate opening. On 191 the measured temp drop changes from about 230C at low to moderate RPM (1800 - 2000 RPM) to about 130C at upper RPMs (above 2400).
The highest EGT pre turbo occurs at moderate RPM (around 1800) at about 670C, then drops a bit to about 650C as revs rise. This coincides with the excess air ratio increasing, per dyno test results. However the post-turbo temp changes from about 440C to 520C over the same range, and moves in the opposite direction!
Increasing boost will reduce EGT provided it increases excess air ratio. However increasing fuel settings (which will also increase boost) will increase EGT, and if done in the lower RPM area could give post turbo temps which look safe but actually aren't safe pre turbo.
I have seen several quotes on the Net which claim a relationship between pre- and post-turbo temps, the relationship on 191 is very different to anything I have seen claimed. However it all makes sense when viewed against turbo behaviour and excess air ratio.

Anyway, once Martyn has the data for the turbo & engine we will know how hard to push.

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08 Nov 2016 16:11 #293 by Ralley
Ralley replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
This is why I put the prob pre turbo. I have also tuned mine so the highest EGT's are well within my limit. The reason for this is because I'm at close to sea level and altitude makes a big difference because of the air fuel mix, the higher you go the richer it gets (more heat). I also drive by my EGT's because of the variables with how the boost compensator affects the fuel as boost comes up and the rpm's change.

My point with higher boost producing less heat was more about a situation with the same load and two different turbo's on the same engine. Example my Cruiser towing our camper at 95 with the first turbo would run about 6 psi and 400c post turbo. With my current setup, same engine different turbo with the same load runs 12 psi and about 330c post Turbo.

Rob

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08 Nov 2016 16:12 #294 by Peter Davis
Peter Davis replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi Martyn
Did a pressure test on the intercooler system today. Right on 12 psi squealing started. Tightened a few hose clamps, noise gone. Pressure tested up to 20 psi no noise. Hopefully problem solved. Should take it for a run tomorrow.
Cheers
Peter

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08 Nov 2016 17:00 #295 by Peter and Sandra OKA 374
Peter and Sandra OKA 374 replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Yes they make a funny noise when the start leaking, when I bought 374 after a leisurely drive home I discovered that it was only getting about 3/4 throttle when it was flat to the floor. Once I fixed that it went much better but when the foot was hard down on hills it would make this weird farting sort of noise, took me a while but discovered that tightening the hose clamps between the turbo and engine stopped it. Not like the Cummins when it blew the hose right off at around 18psi, thought I'd blown the engine with the huge bang underneath.

OKA 374 LT Van, converted to camper/motorhome,
400ah Lithiums, 1100w solar, diesel cooking heating and HWS,
Cummins 6BT, Allison 6 speed auto, Nissan transfer.

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15 Nov 2016 07:01 - 15 Nov 2016 07:02 #296 by dandjcr
dandjcr replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
I've moved the discussion on speedometers to the Parts and Suppliers section here .

Seemed more appropriate.

David

David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
Oka148 profile here.
Visit our technical and travel blogs: here.
Last Edit: 15 Nov 2016 07:02 by dandjcr.
The following user(s) said Thank You: mort

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15 Nov 2016 15:40 #297 by mort
mort replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Hi All
well after 2 weeks I have not had a reply or even an acknowledgement of my request for info regarding the Perkins engine so I will try overseas.Its no wonder we go overseas for things.
Martyn "its an OKA thing"

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24 Nov 2016 16:09 - 24 Nov 2016 16:20 #298 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Upgrade finally complete.
The family want to know when I am going to stop smiling!

First have to thank all contributors to this site, in particular..

Mort who has done an amazing job
Without his persistence and resolve this would not have been possible
Everything he predicted was right including the need to complete all stages:
ie exhaust, air intake, intercooler, turbo and injector pump dyno

David Hallandal for pics and advice on Optiair 1100 and dump pipe mount

Dean at OKA parts for the nifty silicon inlet pipe

Ray Miller at Turbo Engineering for the IP Dyno Tune wizadry
..he also makes purpose built turbos and could not believe the price we paid
said it should have been at least 5 times as much.

Paul Nott for supplying a new starter to replace the one I fried at 60,000 rpm
....don't ask!!

I have too many pics for one post so I have put the saga into four .pdf files...

List of Modifications:
1. Wastegated Turbo: this document OKA149IntakeMods_InitialDyno&Turbo.pdf
2. Optiair 1100 Filter: see separate OKA149IntakeMods_AirFilter.pdf
3. Fan Driven Air to Air Intercooler: see separate OKA149IntakeMods_Intercooler.pdf
4. Other Mods and Final Dyno: see separate OKA149IntakeMods_Other_IPTune&FinalDynos.pdf
a. Remove 100K Delimiter Piston:
b. Free up Injector Pump Fuel Pin:
c. Injector Pump Upgrade Kit:
d. Final Dyno Tune:

Episode 1
Initial Dyno and Turbo Upgrade

File Attachment:

File Name: OKA149Inta...urbo.pdf
File Size:722 KB
Attachments:
Last Edit: 24 Nov 2016 16:20 by Rick Whitworth.
The following user(s) said Thank You: dandjcr, Dean and Kaye Howells, Joseph Baz, mort, DarrenWebster303

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24 Nov 2016 16:14 #299 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
episode 2
Optiiar 1100

File Attachment:

File Name: OKA149Inta...lter.pdf
File Size:971 KB
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The following user(s) said Thank You: Joseph Baz, mort

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24 Nov 2016 16:17 #300 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: Turbo upgrade
Episode 3
Fan driven Intercooler

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File Name: OKA149Inta...oler.pdf
File Size:695 KB
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