rockwell oil

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18 Apr 2020 15:24 #21 by mort
mort replied the topic: rockwell oil
Hi All,
All the things I have heard or read about the Rockwell T/Case is.
Runs too hot.
Too noisy.
Too heavy.
Hand brake doesn't work.
The h/brake drum is too heavy and wears out the seal and bearings.
Too old and should be replaced.
Power draining and sucks around 13% power to run it.
It was never designed to be used in the Oka type application and is best removed.
While I am at it is there anything else to add.
Martyn

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18 Apr 2020 22:25 - 18 Apr 2020 22:32 #22 by ABE
ABE replied the topic: rockwell oil
HI Mort,
I quite often read this as well Mort and say nothing.

However I actually do record the temps of my diffs and axles and wheel bearings front and rear plus gearbox and the transfer case plus uni joint caps. The reason is because I did a lot on the beaches through water, both fresh and the salt, so it was a way I could tell if something was abnormal or not.

The interesting thing I found was that my Rockwell actually runs 10 degree C cooler than my 5 speed Spicer gearbox, fact not fiction and no guess work involved. I run 90 grade oil in both with 25% Morleys additive . I change the oil every 20,000 Klm's in both. I also run the single or double lipped High Temp seals and yes they do weep slightly but no more than my 5 speed does, that has only done 30,000 Klm's. I was advised to do this by Robin Wade because of the conditions that I operated under. I also after each day used to spray degreaser around the seals on my diffs and transfer case and then blow them dry with air. This had the affect of getting rid of the oil on the shafts that the seals sat on which meant the dust from the road or the fine Esperance sand off the beach did not cut the seals out. I also run speedy sleeves on all the shafts from the transfer case.

Normal temp for the transfer going 100Klm's down most tracks runs about 70degree C. G/box about 80 degree C. This is when the temp is say 35 to 40 outside. Highest temp on Trans I have seen on mine when it was 48 C air temp The road temp on the Black top was 85C ,the road was actually sticking to the tyres and leaving bare patches on the road, with the transfer box at 105C transmission about the same, the wheel bearings on the front at 75C. Engine was running about 90C I was doing work for the DEC national parks out of Norseman carting fire fighters to and from Fraser Range for a week in Feb 2009 fighting fires.

Running along bush tracks with at say 50 Klm's/ hour 35C heat outside normally mine is around the same as g/box temp about 70C.
Load it up in low 4WD on a beach at 50 to 60 Klm's/hour it will run up to 10 to 30 degrees hotter depending how soft the sand is.

They are what they are and it was as said all they could get at the time but there also was 3 different ones of the Rockwell used, as I had owned different configurations of them and run the three different ones in my 2 Buses at various times They are noisy and all the things you say but I actually find them reliable even with all the so called down falls, if one looks after them. Better options around maybe, but they do get you there and home again.

I also years ago made up a support bar and run a shaft and bearing off the brake drum, which also solves a few problems

Happy Travels everyone
Regards
ABE Tony

ABE Tony
Last Edit: 18 Apr 2020 22:32 by ABE.
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19 Apr 2020 15:25 - 19 Apr 2020 15:26 #23 by mort
mort replied the topic: rockwell oil
Hi All,
Thanks Tony I had similar as you but you recorded .
So I will go through 1 by 1.
RUNS TOO HOT
Runs too hot in fact it has been said about 130 deg but that was supposedly told by one to another so...
well when I purchased mine from central Qld I decided to drive back to W.A. across the top.
The Oka was in poor condition and no a/c outside temp ranged from 38 to 42 it was also a vehicle that I had no experience with so I didnt know what was normal. We broke down in Mt Isa and spent 1 1/2 wks getting it fixed, while waiting I got all the needed oils and filters and changed engine, g/box, t/case and rear diff to what we could find on the internet as recommended grades.
When travelling I usually stop every 2 hrs or so and the first thing is to check the vehicle on the Oka I start drivers side and feel the hub and move around all looking for a difference in temp then I get under look for any leaks then feel the g/box, t/case then read diff then move to front. I dont know what the temp is but do it often enough and you get an idea as to what is normal.
At no time ..never has the t/case been hotter than the g/box in fact on a hot day I cant hold my hand on the g/box more than a sew seconds where I can for much longer on the t/case.
I am like Tony (ABE) heard it so many times and said nothing.
In fact you get very little if any complaints from the bulk of LT owners with regards to the t/case but you get often from a few who have just revealed and if you do a search you will find that ATF,CRF30,straight 40, 15W40 and 80/90 has been used then when the t/case doesn't perform its a useless case and guess what through it out and go to Paul Knott and get a NP205.
Wake up if you use the wrong oil of course it wont perform and will definitely get hot.

TOO NOISY
I have heard this many times but what I dont hear is the t/case ...I am sitting right next to on top of a noisy engine even though I have redone the insulation and now have a comfortable noise level for me to hear the t/case it would have to be louder than the engine and then if I did I would say wow it sounds like my bearings need replacing I better rebuild it or maybe I know its the wrong oil so of course it will be noisy.
By the way a rebuild kit will be around $1000 and it is real easy to do where to pull it out and replace with will be around $5000 to $7000 its a no brainer.
I will get to the rest later.
Martyn
Last Edit: 19 Apr 2020 15:26 by mort.

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19 Apr 2020 16:42 - 19 Apr 2020 16:43 #24 by mort
mort replied the topic: rockwell oil
Ok I am back,
TOO HEAVY.
The NP 205 is about 64 kg dry and the Rockwell (I just weighed my spare) is 86 kg full of oil so about 24 kg lets be generous and say 30 kg.
What is too heavy? while its in the vehicle who cares its only when you want to take it out that I bitch about its weight but then I have a 1T g/box jack so its only when I want to take it off the jack and put it on the bench.
Its a big strong t/case made and installed into up to 12 T GVM trucks and it helps to lower the centre of gravity but really what is the problem or is it used just to add to some ones dislike of the t/case.

HANDBRAKE DOESN'T WORK
Yes I will agree with that one but I have modified the cable system and all that have followed and done the same now have no complaints, I have not tried it on a really really steep hill but the one outside my place is reasonable and I have no fear of it holding and an Oka that just had a GCM upgrade to 8.5 T the engineer took it to a steep hill loaded to 8.5 T and tested the h/brake and it held.
That upgrade to the h/brake cost about $8 and an hours work.
Dont complain about the h/brake... Rockwell.. and its a reason to change to a NP 205 which also needs a disk to work but spend less than $10 and fix it.

THE H/BRAKE DRUM IS TOO HEAVY etc.
Too heavy I dont know, when I did strip mine down I was expecting some thing weighing 10 kg but to my surprise I would guess maybe 2 kg or less so ok maybe with it hanging off the end of the shaft its too much for the seal and bearings. To my surprise the yoke that it bolts to sits up against the bearing race, I couldnt see what the problem was so I replaced the seal put it all back together and before replacing the pressed metal cap I filled with silicone. That was maybe 6 yrs ago and never had a leak since.

TOO OLD AND SHOULD BE REPLACED.
So it has been said it is a 70 yr old design and when Oka got it it was 30 yrs obsolete.
So what it must have been pretty good to go that long and 30 yrs obsolete that would mean that in say 1965 they were not being used anymore umm actually Ford, GM, I.H. and a few more were using them well past 1965 but even if they were not how long was the NP 205 produced a lot less than 70 yrs.
So if it is old technology what about the Dana diff or the Spicer g/box or I know the Perkins engine then again what about the whole Oka ...too old go away most Oka owners are old do we get rid of them also.
Martyn
Last Edit: 19 Apr 2020 16:43 by mort.

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19 Apr 2020 22:09 #25 by Ralley
Ralley replied the topic: rockwell oil
I think it’s really difficult to determine how hot the TC is running in central Australia or anywhere you get high ambient temperatures unless you run a temp gauge. From my experience things are not always what they seem. I have no doubt that things defiantly run hotter in higher ambient temperatures but it can often be more about the higher ambient temperatures. I spend some time in those conditions and it always feels like things are running really hot but the gauges tell a different story. When in these conditions the Cummins shows no rise on the dash same with the Allison. The digital watch dog reads metal temps on the head of the Cummins and the Allison both tell a similar story. The engine temp is maybe 5deg higher on average and the Allison doesn’t get any hotter the fan just cycles a bit more often. The fan come on at 93 and turns of at 75. The intercooler temperatures are usually about 10 to 15degs above ambient. I have a digital gauge reading in and out. Egts are a bit higher but not by much. Alternator runs a bit higher but more related to output, I’ve got a digital gauge on this too.
My point in sharing all this is that I can get out after driving fully loaded in these conditions and feel like things are running really hot, like how can things sustain this. Yes things are hotter but maybe not as hot as we think.
I’m not going to say that the Rockwell is not running to hot but maybe it would be good to get some real figures from a gauge.
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20 Apr 2020 06:39 - 20 Apr 2020 06:40 #26 by Alister McBride
Alister McBride replied the topic: rockwell oil

I’m not going to say that the Rockwell is not running to hot but maybe it would be good to get some real figures from a gauge.

Sounds like ABE has... and is possibly the only one who has (that might be your point Rob?). Maybe his runs a bit cooler because of the additive he uses as was recommended by someone else earlier.

Overall i couldn't really give a crap if people like bananas, apples or a rockwell. I poke fun at the rockwell for a bit of fun, like i poke fun at quite a few of the OKA's 'idiosyncrasies'.

Without experience myself, from reading what has been written above, i think it would be safe to assume the following points:
- if you use an additive it runs cooler,
- if you change the seals (as ABE has) to triple lip, high temp etc and keep abrasives away from them regularly you won't have too many leaks,
- the handbrake doesn't work on any original oka setup so...

I do have a question about power drain though. Being a TC designed for trucks around the 10-12T GVM mark (13-16T GCM double the oka), it defies engineering logic that it doesn't sap some amount of the poor little perkies power (this is backed up by peoples testimonies, however subjective). Since this is probable, i would suggest that this would create some extra heat in the tranny (assumption) thereby making it hotter than the rockwell and so there is a slight flaw in the above arguments. All being said, that's enough for me not to change over to the rockwell ;) but if you like it you like it! It works... most of the time... (sorry, had to get a joke in there, couldn't help it! :D i'm sure there's been plenty of 205's that have broken down out on the road...)
Last Edit: 20 Apr 2020 06:40 by Alister McBride.
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20 Apr 2020 15:29 #27 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: rockwell oil

Alister McBride wrote:

I’m not going to say that the Rockwell is not running to hot but maybe it would be good to get some real figures from a gauge.

Sounds like ABE has... and is possibly the only one who has (that might be your point Rob?). Maybe his runs a bit cooler because of the additive he uses as was recommended by someone else earlier.

Overall i couldn't really give a crap if people like bananas, apples or a rockwell. I poke fun at the rockwell for a bit of fun, like i poke fun at quite a few of the OKA's 'idiosyncrasies'.

Without experience myself, from reading what has been written above, i think it would be safe to assume the following points:
- if you use an additive it runs cooler,
- if you change the seals (as ABE has) to triple lip, high temp etc and keep abrasives away from them regularly you won't have too many leaks,
- the handbrake doesn't work on any original oka setup so...

I do have a question about power drain though. Being a TC designed for trucks around the 10-12T GVM mark (13-16T GCM double the oka), it defies engineering logic that it doesn't sap some amount of the poor little perkies power (this is backed up by peoples testimonies, however subjective). Since this is probable, i would suggest that this would create some extra heat in the tranny (assumption) thereby making it hotter than the rockwell and so there is a slight flaw in the above arguments. All being said, that's enough for me not to change over to the rockwell ;) but if you like it you like it! It works... most of the time... (sorry, had to get a joke in there, couldn't help it! :D i'm sure there's been plenty of 205's that have broken down out on the road...)


Good point about the additives and temp versus different oils.

So far we have a sample size of 1.
A few more sensors and we might be onto some science.

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21 Apr 2020 10:23 #28 by mort
mort replied the topic: rockwell oil
Hi Alister,
Well now we know you do actually have a sense of humor.
I prefer to have a bit of fun rather than being serious and when comments have been made in the past I was never sure if they were just taking the piss or really believed what was being said but when Greg asked for the oil for Rockwell and to be told even ATF has been used I realised they believed it and Greg may have used it or anyone else and then stuffed the T/Case I had to say some thing.
The power drain yes well that is another issue....I will comment.
Martyn

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21 Apr 2020 16:54 #29 by mort
mort replied the topic: rockwell oil
Hi All,
Power draining and sucks 13% of power to run it.
Well all equipment needs power to run in this case G/Box, T/Case and Diffs etc but 13% for the T/Case well yes it is made for up to 12t trucks and although the other myths have been debunked how do we address the power consumption of the Rockwell other than "I got told" or " the XT drives better than the LT" , is there and data to show or do we just have to accept it as fact or fiction.
Martyn

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22 Apr 2020 07:06 #30 by Holmz
Holmz replied the topic: rockwell oil

mort wrote: Hi All,
Power draining and sucks 13% of power to run it.
Well all equipment needs power to run in this case G/Box, T/Case and Diffs etc but 13% for the T/Case well yes it is made for up to 12t trucks and although the other myths have been debunked how do we address the power consumption of the Rockwell other than "I got told" or " the XT drives better than the LT" , is there and data to show or do we just have to accept it as fact or fiction.
Martyn


Did you misspell friction?

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22 Apr 2020 09:49 #31 by Rick Whitworth
Rick Whitworth replied the topic: rockwell oil
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22 Apr 2020 11:11 #32 by mort
mort replied the topic: rockwell oil
Hi Holmz,
yes it must be the cogs in my head getting overheated and the oil has lost its viscosity so I might need some nulon oil additive to reduce the fiction sorry friction.
Martyn

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22 Apr 2020 11:13 #33 by mort
mort replied the topic: rockwell oil
Hi Rick,
Brilliant I remembered the slogan but couldn't remember the brand.
Martyn

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23 May 2020 16:56 - 23 May 2020 16:58 #34 by mort
mort replied the topic: rockwell oil
Hi All,
Well over the last few weeks I have done some research on the Rockwell T/case mainly in the States as that is where most of the T223 models were used.
I really cant find any negative comments about the T/case and in fact if you had one in the States you would have no trouble in selling it.
As far as the T/case sucking 13% power I can find no, none, nil evidence at all that it drains any power but we know that any piece of equipment takes power but there is no data that I could find where some one has recorded how much it takes to run.
I can only speculate that some one for what ever reason imagined that A T/case of this type must use a lot of power and around a camp fire came up with the figure maybe as a joke or an XT owner with LT owner bragging that an XT is better because.
Here is some interesting figures of 4 OKA's that have had a dyno done.
XT ................LT
99.6 hp......104.4 hp
94.5 hp......105 hp
I can give the OKA No but that is taken from the dyno figures as posted by the owners after doing the upgrade of the turbo and filter etc and one could say that the work was done by different people and different dyno centres yes well 1 XT and 1 LT was done by the same mechanic and the same dyno centre one could say maybe he did the XT first and was able to improve on the LT but he did the LT first.
That is the only recorded test of the difference between a Rockwell and an NP 205
Over the past few weeks I have phoned and spoken to several LT owners to get their opinion of their T/case and all the ones that still have the Rockwell have no issues but I did find 2 that have the NP 205 1 listened to what some were saying and changed but realised after that he made a mistake and if it wasnt for the $5000 he spent he would change back, the other is in Perth and wants one of the Rockwells that I have now he doesnt know anything about the NP 205 as it was in there when he got the vehicle but he doesnt like the angle of the rear driveshaft which I have to agree.
I have a short video that I will post soon
Martyn.
Last Edit: 23 May 2020 16:58 by mort.

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23 May 2020 20:44 #35 by Nobby
Nobby replied the topic: rockwell oil
Hi Allabout,
There is not much happening this season, as this chinavirus has scuttled the tourist industry here..
However, I do long hard hauls in the top end of the Territory, and use a XT as well as a LT..often towing..
We had no end of problems with the LT Rockwell, and spent megabucks on repairs.mostly around the handbrake drum retainers / splines / shaft. The workmanship of these repairs left much to be desired.. like brake drum falling off on the road [they forgot the circlip] , transfer case falling out on the road into Twin Falls..it went on.. With a little help from Dean, I sourced a second hand Rockwell for $250.00. I figured you don't get a lot of parts for that money.. When it arrived, I removed the top cover for inspection.. It was impressively tidy..so I fitted it 'as is'... It does have some modification on the handbrake shaft / drum mounting..The handbrake even worked!! I use EP90 gear oil, with an additive known as MBL, which is microfine particles of lead and copper.. That was some years ago.. I have replaced some seals. and I only use CR [Chicago Rawhide] seals.. It has been trouble free.. but compared to the old NP205 on the XT it does run quite hot.. and does sap power.. Just look at the Rockwell design.. compared to the NP205..In high range, the power goes in and out on the same shaft.. not through a gear train like the Rockwell.. . Last year, in our busy time my XT clocked over 20,000 kilos in July and August alone.. sometimes doing 1100 kilos in one day.. and the NP205 only gets warm.. It would have done more work than that this year.. but that is history now.. I do use the MBL additive in all my gearboxes and diffs..
CR make a brilliant Viton rear wheel oil seal for the Dana diff. I would never use anything else.. I should be able to attach an image of seal and part no if anyone is interested..
Happy hunting,
Nobby.
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25 May 2020 06:56 - 26 May 2020 06:48 #36 by Alister McBride
Alister McBride replied the topic: rockwell oil
Hi Nobby, thanks for the info. Would love to get links and/or part numbers and pics of the seals you're using! Maybe in the 'parts and suppliers' section so it's not hard for everyone to find?
Last Edit: 26 May 2020 06:48 by mort.

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25 May 2020 08:09 #37 by Nobby
Nobby replied the topic: rockwell oil
Good morning Alister,
I will attempt to attach an image of the CR seal.. As Paul Hogan would say.. "Thats a seal"..
They arent cheap, but cost pales into insignificance compared to the downtime, inconvenience, and labour cost to fit.. I do tend toward longlivety..In case I fail to attach, the CR part no is 30057, and I get them from BPT in Toowoomba, Qld, 0746360522, [Grant], and they are at 356 South St..
Looks like I might have to go to 'editor' to attach an image..
Cheers,
Nobby.

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25 May 2020 08:13 - 26 May 2020 06:50 #38 by Nobby
Nobby replied the topic: rockwell oil
Hi 'Editor',
I was unable to attach an image in my message to Alister, so I hope you dont mind me attaching here, and hopefully he will find it..
As Paul Hogan would say.. "Thats a seal"..
Cheers, Nobby.

Attachments:
Last Edit: 26 May 2020 06:50 by mort.

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25 May 2020 18:52 #39 by Alister McBride
Alister McBride replied the topic: rockwell oil
'that's a seal' definitely Nobby! I'll put it on the parts and suppliers section if i can. Cheers mate!

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