Getting beyond my comfort zone - front axle seals
01 Nov 2012 11:39 #1
by dandjcr
David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
Oka148 profile here.
Visit our technical and travel blogs: here.
dandjcr created the topic: Getting beyond my comfort zone - front axle seals
Forum Home > OKA Maintenance > Getting beyond my comfort zone - front axle seals
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
I guess a lot of unaccustomed exercise in 4WD mode has proved a bit much for 17-year old seal materials because I have a bit of oil leaking out of each end of the front axle tubes. The diff oil had a bit of water in it as well so as well as using oil, it's not wading-proof either.
I'd be happy to change the outer seals, but a leak along the axle tube obviously means that the seal on the diff end of the axle tube is leaking as well, so logic says that both should be changed. Changing the inner one requires the diff to be removed and this requires all sorts of special stuff that I don't have here at Beltana station.
(talking about the tube seals, not the hub seals)
Am I right in thinking this job might be better left to proper mechanics in a proper workshop? (I've finished with the 4wd part of this trip so it isn't an urgent job - but of course it is nice to have decent concrete floors and an elevated ramp to work on rather than the rough gravel at home so I'm making the most of it while I can)
One of the three OKAs we met at Dalhousie Springs had a lot of watery oil on the ground under one front axle end and when I pointed it out, was told "it only happens in 4WD" so I guess it was in the too hard basket for them too.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
October 6, 2010 at 8:37 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Alister McBride
Member
Posts: 97
Hi Tony,
I have a fair leak out of both my front diff tubes and in passing was chatting to Robin Wade who told me it was relatively common, aspecially in the earlier models which had a higher oil level in the front diff. Might be worth giving Robin Wade a call.
As for water ingress, mine would probably suffer too. i'm sure it could wait untill you got home as long as it's not too bad... Aspecially if you've finished most of the 4WD work.
Just my thoughts...
Cheers
Alister
October 6, 2010 at 10:26 PM Flag Quote & Reply
joseph baz
Member
Posts: 331
Tony,the diff carrier can be removed without a spreader(it's a lot easier with one) however the inner axle seals are a bit tricky to install,if you have the right tool it means thet you can fit them nice and square,the design in my opinion lets the whole thing down,you have to be really carefull when you slide the axles back in as no to damage the new seal,unless you have a good idea I think you should leave it to either Paul or Robyn whenever you're in the area,as far as clutches go ,personally I will not fit a ceramic clutch in a 4wd
Cheers
Joe
October 7, 2010 at 12:46 AM Flag Quote & Reply
Peter_n_Margaret
Member
Posts: 198
I would leave the diff tony, but I would have a look at the front wheel bearings to make sure there is no water in them.
Which way are you going from Beltana?
Cheers,
Peter
--
Cheers Peter, OKA196 Motorhome. www.oka4wd.com/xt196.htm
October 7, 2010 at 5:57 AM Flag Quote & Reply
Peter_n_Margaret
Member
Posts: 198
Remenber also that the diff is upside down, that is why they get more oil than usual.
Cheers,
Peter
--
Cheers Peter, OKA196 Motorhome. www.oka4wd.com/xt196.htm
October 7, 2010 at 5:58 AM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
So trick is to put less oil in it. Sounds like the Detroit diesel in my bus - advice is to reduce oil consumption by running with the oil level no higher than half way in the dipstick.
Don't know about water in the front hub but we have done a lot of wading so rather than cause myself problems with the inner seals, I might just check the wheel bearings instead. All good practice I suppose. Grrrrr!!
BTW Peter. I saw where you had fitted wedges to reduce the mounting angle of the front axle to give the universal joint on the front of the drive shaft a better angle. How did you do that and still keep the front wheel geometry the same?
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
October 7, 2010 at 7:11 AM Flag Quote & Reply
Peter_n_Margaret
Member
Posts: 198
I have not really driven it much since that was done Tony.
The drive shaft angles was a secondary consideration. My main worry was that the urethane sleeve on the front drive shaft was impacting the starter motor! Any inspection would convince you that that was not possible, but the marks were there.
On the basis that the previous owner had welded up the bell housing where the starter mount area had broken, I thought it better not to push my luck.
The wedges increased clearance there by about 30mm which should be plenty.
Laser Wheel Alignment at Regency Park (Adelaide) did the work an re-aligned it at the same time. The wedges made minimal difference, just changes the caster a tad. Not enough to notice on the road and the Laser guys were quite happy with the result and I reckon they know their stuff. The OKA is as small a vehicle as I have ever seen them work on.
They did a wheel alignment on it 5 years ago and this is the first time it had been touched since. I replaced all the tie rod ends at the same time ($$$$s). (Just for you Willem
.....)
Cheers,
Peter
--
Cheers Peter, OKA196 Motorhome. www.oka4wd.com/xt196.htm
October 7, 2010 at 3:29 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Yes, the oil level in the front diff is hugely higher than the back one - to the extent that it is about level with the top of the axle tube whereas on the back it is barely above the bottom of the axle tube - but it isn't because the axle is upside down, it's because the housing has been made with the filler hole in that position.
Think I might lower it a tad or two.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
October 7, 2010 at 4:23 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Yes, the oil level in the front diff is hugely higher than the back one - to the extent that it is about level with the top of the axle tube whereas on the back it is barely above the bottom of the axle tube - but it isn't because the axle is upside down, it's because the housing has been made with the filler hole in that position.
Think I might lower it a tad or two.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
October 7, 2010 at 4:23 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Dandj
Member
Posts: 367
Tony, I did an overhaul of my front axle last year, including the inner seals.
I wrote it all up on our blog at dandjribbans.blogspot.com/2009/08/vibrat...from-front-axle.html There are 2 posts, the second (putting it all back together) is more relevant.
It was a long job but not particularly difficult, and it all worked fine over the past 14,000 km up Cape York and back. I got all the bits from Paul Nott.
Hope that helps.
--
David and Janet Ribbans, Oka 148
October 7, 2010 at 6:10 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Paul & Sue Crompton
Member
Posts: 44
Hi Tony - I had the same problem in my truck. If the car was on a lean, the oil would slowly drain out. I think I caused the damage myself by servicing the front hubs and seals, I slid the axle out and they must have touched the inner seal and being old, I guess they were perished.
Anyway, I rang most of the local diff places and all of them said I would need specialist tools and some even said the whole front axle assembly would need to be removed out of the truck. After ringing Paul Notts, he assured me that no specialised tools were required and he was a lot of help.
Anyway, out in the back yard in the gravel, I just slid the axles out, unbolted the diff assembly, cleaned everything up and reassembled. As Paul mentioned to me, you just make sure you put everything back exactly how you found it. There was nothing technical but the actual diff assembly was a little bit heavy to do by yourself. I also had to reconnect the air locker as well. I would wait until you get home as removing axles would probably damage the inner seals more. I also had a workshop manual which I could refer back to. It was a bit time consuming as I was just double checking everything having not done one before. Everything now seems to be working fine.
--
Paul & Sue Crompton
October 7, 2010 at 6:50 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Thanks David, thanks Paul.
Now all I need is some time.
David, your blog cleared up one puzzle. I saw the inner seal and then the outer mine seal
and wondered why there would be two seals that could end up trapping a lot of oil and or water in between. Also seemed strange that water would get to the diff past two seals.
Guess standard OKA doesn't have the mine seals.
I did at least change the oil and if we stay out of the water, should have no problems. I was going to weld a nut onto the diff cover to make a drain port so I could easily check for water contamination but our resident welder shot through. Next time.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
October 7, 2010 at 8:44 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Outback Jack
Member
Posts: 381
The transfer case also suffered a with lack of enough oil.
Robyn, was telling me that the XT where blowing transfer cases. They then put a small block on the drain plug which allowed for a little more oil. He also uses the same oil in the transfer as the engine. Which is Fuchs 40 or 30 cant remember.
--
October 7, 2010 at 9:28 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Outback Jack at October 7, 2010 at 9:28 PM
The transfer case also suffered a with lack of enough oil.
Robyn, was telling me that the XT where blowing transfer cases. They then put a small block on the drain plug which allowed for a little more oil. He also uses the same oil in the transfer as the engine. Which is Fuchs 40 or 30 cant remember.
Mine has an male-female elbow screwed into the fill port and the fill plug is in the elbow. The elbow is mounted at about 45 degrees so the fill level is perhaps 8mm higher.
Is that similar to what you are talking about?
OKA operators' manual specifies engine oil for the transfer case.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
October 7, 2010 at 9:36 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Outback Jack
Member
Posts: 381
Tony, yes your right. I just couldnt find the words to explain it. According to Robyn this is a mod he ask OKA to do. Allowing a little more oil.
--
October 7, 2010 at 10:31 PM Flag Quote & Reply
dingo
Member
Posts: 14
Front inner seals arn't to hard depends on your mechanical abiliies. If you can get to a lath machining a piece of pipe for new seal instalation would be my strong recomendation. BUT for now include one of the great oil additives to make sure water is not emulsifing/ pushing oil away from and doing big damage to the high pressure faces of your crown/pinnion. Nulons N76 (no I've got the number rong), Repco have it and Nulon are very good for on line research ie how to clean bachteria out of a diesel tank. Being an Ozzy company and putting this sort of info on their website deserve our patronage!
Tim.
October 9, 2010 at 9:44 AM
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
I guess a lot of unaccustomed exercise in 4WD mode has proved a bit much for 17-year old seal materials because I have a bit of oil leaking out of each end of the front axle tubes. The diff oil had a bit of water in it as well so as well as using oil, it's not wading-proof either.
I'd be happy to change the outer seals, but a leak along the axle tube obviously means that the seal on the diff end of the axle tube is leaking as well, so logic says that both should be changed. Changing the inner one requires the diff to be removed and this requires all sorts of special stuff that I don't have here at Beltana station.
(talking about the tube seals, not the hub seals)
Am I right in thinking this job might be better left to proper mechanics in a proper workshop? (I've finished with the 4wd part of this trip so it isn't an urgent job - but of course it is nice to have decent concrete floors and an elevated ramp to work on rather than the rough gravel at home so I'm making the most of it while I can)
One of the three OKAs we met at Dalhousie Springs had a lot of watery oil on the ground under one front axle end and when I pointed it out, was told "it only happens in 4WD" so I guess it was in the too hard basket for them too.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
October 6, 2010 at 8:37 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Alister McBride
Member
Posts: 97
Hi Tony,
I have a fair leak out of both my front diff tubes and in passing was chatting to Robin Wade who told me it was relatively common, aspecially in the earlier models which had a higher oil level in the front diff. Might be worth giving Robin Wade a call.
As for water ingress, mine would probably suffer too. i'm sure it could wait untill you got home as long as it's not too bad... Aspecially if you've finished most of the 4WD work.
Just my thoughts...
Cheers
Alister
October 6, 2010 at 10:26 PM Flag Quote & Reply
joseph baz
Member
Posts: 331
Tony,the diff carrier can be removed without a spreader(it's a lot easier with one) however the inner axle seals are a bit tricky to install,if you have the right tool it means thet you can fit them nice and square,the design in my opinion lets the whole thing down,you have to be really carefull when you slide the axles back in as no to damage the new seal,unless you have a good idea I think you should leave it to either Paul or Robyn whenever you're in the area,as far as clutches go ,personally I will not fit a ceramic clutch in a 4wd
Cheers
Joe
October 7, 2010 at 12:46 AM Flag Quote & Reply
Peter_n_Margaret
Member
Posts: 198
I would leave the diff tony, but I would have a look at the front wheel bearings to make sure there is no water in them.
Which way are you going from Beltana?
Cheers,
Peter
--
Cheers Peter, OKA196 Motorhome. www.oka4wd.com/xt196.htm
October 7, 2010 at 5:57 AM Flag Quote & Reply
Peter_n_Margaret
Member
Posts: 198
Remenber also that the diff is upside down, that is why they get more oil than usual.
Cheers,
Peter
--
Cheers Peter, OKA196 Motorhome. www.oka4wd.com/xt196.htm
October 7, 2010 at 5:58 AM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
So trick is to put less oil in it. Sounds like the Detroit diesel in my bus - advice is to reduce oil consumption by running with the oil level no higher than half way in the dipstick.
Don't know about water in the front hub but we have done a lot of wading so rather than cause myself problems with the inner seals, I might just check the wheel bearings instead. All good practice I suppose. Grrrrr!!
BTW Peter. I saw where you had fitted wedges to reduce the mounting angle of the front axle to give the universal joint on the front of the drive shaft a better angle. How did you do that and still keep the front wheel geometry the same?
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
October 7, 2010 at 7:11 AM Flag Quote & Reply
Peter_n_Margaret
Member
Posts: 198
I have not really driven it much since that was done Tony.
The drive shaft angles was a secondary consideration. My main worry was that the urethane sleeve on the front drive shaft was impacting the starter motor! Any inspection would convince you that that was not possible, but the marks were there.
On the basis that the previous owner had welded up the bell housing where the starter mount area had broken, I thought it better not to push my luck.
The wedges increased clearance there by about 30mm which should be plenty.
Laser Wheel Alignment at Regency Park (Adelaide) did the work an re-aligned it at the same time. The wedges made minimal difference, just changes the caster a tad. Not enough to notice on the road and the Laser guys were quite happy with the result and I reckon they know their stuff. The OKA is as small a vehicle as I have ever seen them work on.
They did a wheel alignment on it 5 years ago and this is the first time it had been touched since. I replaced all the tie rod ends at the same time ($$$$s). (Just for you Willem
.....)Cheers,
Peter
--
Cheers Peter, OKA196 Motorhome. www.oka4wd.com/xt196.htm
October 7, 2010 at 3:29 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Yes, the oil level in the front diff is hugely higher than the back one - to the extent that it is about level with the top of the axle tube whereas on the back it is barely above the bottom of the axle tube - but it isn't because the axle is upside down, it's because the housing has been made with the filler hole in that position.
Think I might lower it a tad or two.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
October 7, 2010 at 4:23 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Yes, the oil level in the front diff is hugely higher than the back one - to the extent that it is about level with the top of the axle tube whereas on the back it is barely above the bottom of the axle tube - but it isn't because the axle is upside down, it's because the housing has been made with the filler hole in that position.
Think I might lower it a tad or two.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
October 7, 2010 at 4:23 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Dandj
Member
Posts: 367
Tony, I did an overhaul of my front axle last year, including the inner seals.
I wrote it all up on our blog at dandjribbans.blogspot.com/2009/08/vibrat...from-front-axle.html There are 2 posts, the second (putting it all back together) is more relevant.
It was a long job but not particularly difficult, and it all worked fine over the past 14,000 km up Cape York and back. I got all the bits from Paul Nott.
Hope that helps.
--
David and Janet Ribbans, Oka 148
October 7, 2010 at 6:10 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Paul & Sue Crompton
Member
Posts: 44
Hi Tony - I had the same problem in my truck. If the car was on a lean, the oil would slowly drain out. I think I caused the damage myself by servicing the front hubs and seals, I slid the axle out and they must have touched the inner seal and being old, I guess they were perished.
Anyway, I rang most of the local diff places and all of them said I would need specialist tools and some even said the whole front axle assembly would need to be removed out of the truck. After ringing Paul Notts, he assured me that no specialised tools were required and he was a lot of help.
Anyway, out in the back yard in the gravel, I just slid the axles out, unbolted the diff assembly, cleaned everything up and reassembled. As Paul mentioned to me, you just make sure you put everything back exactly how you found it. There was nothing technical but the actual diff assembly was a little bit heavy to do by yourself. I also had to reconnect the air locker as well. I would wait until you get home as removing axles would probably damage the inner seals more. I also had a workshop manual which I could refer back to. It was a bit time consuming as I was just double checking everything having not done one before. Everything now seems to be working fine.
--
Paul & Sue Crompton
October 7, 2010 at 6:50 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Thanks David, thanks Paul.
Now all I need is some time.
David, your blog cleared up one puzzle. I saw the inner seal and then the outer mine seal
and wondered why there would be two seals that could end up trapping a lot of oil and or water in between. Also seemed strange that water would get to the diff past two seals.
Guess standard OKA doesn't have the mine seals.
I did at least change the oil and if we stay out of the water, should have no problems. I was going to weld a nut onto the diff cover to make a drain port so I could easily check for water contamination but our resident welder shot through. Next time.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
October 7, 2010 at 8:44 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Outback Jack
Member
Posts: 381
The transfer case also suffered a with lack of enough oil.
Robyn, was telling me that the XT where blowing transfer cases. They then put a small block on the drain plug which allowed for a little more oil. He also uses the same oil in the transfer as the engine. Which is Fuchs 40 or 30 cant remember.
--
October 7, 2010 at 9:28 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Tony Lee
Member
Posts: 539
Outback Jack at October 7, 2010 at 9:28 PM
The transfer case also suffered a with lack of enough oil.
Robyn, was telling me that the XT where blowing transfer cases. They then put a small block on the drain plug which allowed for a little more oil. He also uses the same oil in the transfer as the engine. Which is Fuchs 40 or 30 cant remember.
Mine has an male-female elbow screwed into the fill port and the fill plug is in the elbow. The elbow is mounted at about 45 degrees so the fill level is perhaps 8mm higher.
Is that similar to what you are talking about?
OKA operators' manual specifies engine oil for the transfer case.
--
Tony
picasaweb.google.com/114611728110254134379
October 7, 2010 at 9:36 PM Flag Quote & Reply
Outback Jack
Member
Posts: 381
Tony, yes your right. I just couldnt find the words to explain it. According to Robyn this is a mod he ask OKA to do. Allowing a little more oil.
--
October 7, 2010 at 10:31 PM Flag Quote & Reply
dingo
Member
Posts: 14
Front inner seals arn't to hard depends on your mechanical abiliies. If you can get to a lath machining a piece of pipe for new seal instalation would be my strong recomendation. BUT for now include one of the great oil additives to make sure water is not emulsifing/ pushing oil away from and doing big damage to the high pressure faces of your crown/pinnion. Nulons N76 (no I've got the number rong), Repco have it and Nulon are very good for on line research ie how to clean bachteria out of a diesel tank. Being an Ozzy company and putting this sort of info on their website deserve our patronage!
Tim.
October 9, 2010 at 9:44 AM
David and Janet Ribbans - Oka 148
Oka148 profile here.
Visit our technical and travel blogs: here.
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